[convertkit form=5160905]

The Crawley Composters: Why We Need Worms – Cathy Nesbitt

Kathy Nesbitt

Miriam: [00:00:00] All right folks, today I am happy for this interview. It’s gonna be super fun. It is with Cathy of Cathy’s Crawley Composters.

Now, in case you’re wondering what this is, I was just charmed by her application to be on the podcast.

We’re talking about worms, folks. Composting worms, , and I love that Cathy has made a a viable business out of this.

You’ve been in this for over two decades, so I’m excited. I wanna just say welcome and let’s see where this conversation takes us.

Thanks, Miriam. I’m excited to be here.

So why don’t you give us a tiny background as to how you got into the business of worms.

[00:00:42] Behind the Worms

Kathy: I’m located, nor just north of Toronto, largest city in Canada. And in 2002, our landfill closed and Canada’s pretty large country, second largest I think, in the world. And we couldn’t find a place to site a new landfill. Can you imagine? So we started to export our garbage to the US.

Sorry.[00:01:00] A thousand trucks a week. Wow. And it, it’s just, it’s heartbreaking when I think about it. What a waste of like, shame on us as Canadians for shlepping our garbage out of the country, and double shame on the Americans for accepting our garbage for cash and not the people.

The decision makers like, right, who decided? Right. Come on. Right.

Miriam: Where is it going? Do you know?

Kathy: Well, now it’s, it’s finished now, but for it, it went on for, Hmm. I would say at least 10 years.

I just think we don’t, we don’t really think about stuff.

We’re like, oh, there’s room. Oh no, we, today’s load fit. We don’t have to think about it. And then it filled up. It’s like, the landfill filled. How did that happen? I didn’t see that coming.

Yeah. 6 million people. Right. Oh my gosh. Anyway, so what I’m proposing is indoor composting with worms. So 6 million people half live in condos and townhouses without space to do outdoor composting.

Miriam: So tell us a little bit about the the mechanics of it.

I mean, I love being [00:02:00] outdoors and I think worms are incredibly valuable. I know it’s pretty easy to have dead soil. I have tried some composting in some spaces and found out the hard way that. This isn’t working.


Kathy: Yeah. So composting is nature’s way to look after our organic matter, our food scraps paper, our, you know, weeds from the garden and it’s usually done outside. No special equipment is required. Maybe a pile or. A composter proper, a plastic thing or wood.

Okay. So it’s creating the right carbon, nitrogen, ratio. So the carbon is your browns, your, you know, brown leaves against straw, cardboard paper, and your, your greens is your nitrogen. So that’s the fuel. Your green leaves, your green, your food scraps from the kitchen. Your manures are all nitrogen rich, and it’s the microbes that actually do the work.

Okay, . So what I’m proposing is indoor composting the worms. And so what happens with the worm? [00:03:00] Same idea. They need a carbon, nitrogen, red mix. It’s in like a rubber made tote or something. Or if you have a compost, like a fancy system The carbon or the bedding is your shredded paper or your confidential docs.

Managing the Compost

Imagine. Make sure you’ve done your homework kids before you feed it to the worms. , , the worms ate my homework. , . And then a little bit of soil. Again, you’re adding the soil for the little microorganisms some eggshells water. Mix it all up, add your worms on top, and then when you’re feeding your food scraps, you bury the food in the beddings.

Make sure it’s covered so you don’t get fruit flies.

So more management is required in the house. So it’s aerobic process, meaning with oxygen, so it will, it, it shouldn’t smell like rotting food.

Miriam: Interesting. Well, I love this idea of all these people who are living in these condos and spaces.

This is actually a really brilliant idea.

Talk about the little ups and downs as you started to make a business out of this .

[00:03:59] The Ups and Downs

Kathy: Well, . [00:04:00] First of all, I chose a business without repeat customers.

Oh, no. What? How did that happen? Who was my business coach? Oh, there wasn’t one . That’s right. I remember now. That’s right.

Let’s hear it for the business coaches, . Right. Nobody would’ve said to do this business.

Thank goodness I did. You know, here I am. And I really think I needed to create the market. I didn’t know at the time,

And I also didn’t know that people don’t buy what they need. They buy what they want. ?


So many, I guess learning curves there,

you know, the worms ate better than I did at the beginning. That’s, that’s always bad. When your employees eat better than you when they’re worms , right?

 I thought I launched right into this thinking I have a solution for this big problem.

I’m gonna stop all those trucks from being exported to the US. Yeah. So we can use our tax dollars for something other than just shipping our garbage around. Like, what a great idea.

. I have a psychology [00:05:00] degree and now I’m a worm farmer.

Yeah. That’s really brilliant too. Actually it is cuz I’m curious about people. I love people and I’m fascinated. Mm-hmm. and . I’m meeting people as a, at a, as adults who were traumatized as children by a sibling or someone at the schoolyard after a reign by a worm being chased around with a worm. Interesting.

Understanding Worms

So if you’re afraid of something, you’re not even looking to that as a solution. Like, nope, you’re not looking, you, you’re not reading that article, . So, as much as I was pounding the pavement trying to get the message out, rah rah, you need worms. It’s like, no, no, no, no, I don’t like worms.

Miriam: How did you go about helping them understand, no, actually you really need this. I mean, 20 years is a long time to have been in business and most businesses don’t make it past, you know, the first year or two. So you’ve been doing something.

Kathy: A few things happened in the early part. I started networking and I met this [00:06:00] dynamic, oh my gosh, amazing woman. And I say that she launched me three years ahead of where I would’ve been. At the beginning, she was a connector. She suggested if you’re gonna do exhibiting, get t-shirts that have your name on and then on the back it’s got your website, so they see you coming and going.

And I was like, oh. And as a non-fashion person, what a gift. I was doing a hundred to 200 events. I still wear the same shirts today. Like I saved a wack-o- dough and, and I’m branded.

there. You, you go and connected. You know? So yeah, getting connected early on to people that could help me. It’s not, it’s not what you know, it’s who you know, then you gotta prove yourself.

 She connected me to these people in the food and beverage industry.

Converting to Worms

I have composting, right? Rotting food is a problem. You pay a lot of money if you’re a business. Restaurants, grocery stores, universities, hospitals, they pay a lot of money to truck away all this stuff because it was the, it was yesterday’s dinner, but today it’s the devil . That’s right. [00:07:00] Yeah.

Miriam: Can you tell a couple stories of maybe some people who you were able to convert to your worm system

Kathy: I’ve converted many, many people and I would love to talk about how it’s not gendered.

If you love the garden, you love nature. You could be male or female growing your food, you know the value of the compost, and you probably love worms and I have probably 50 50 split of men and women.

Okay, so people will arrive. I live in a small house. I work from home, and when people pick up worms, . . If it’s a couple, they’ll both come in. And I have composters in my kitchen. And the one that is interested, they’re all excited. It’s like they’re picking up a puppy,  they’re like, yay, my worms, I can’t wait.

And the other one’s got their hand, on the door to leave . Mm-hmm.

and I, they say, you know, I’m just here supporting my, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend’s, spouse, whatever, whoever. And. And I say to them, then I speak to them cuz they’re like, yeah, I don’t really wanna do this, but whatever. I love them[00:08:00]

So then I say, oh, can you smell anything in the kitchen?

I’ll take them over to my composter and. You open it. It’s like, Wow. It’s counterintuitive. It doesn’t smell, it just looks like earth. And then I say, come and have a look.

Fearing the Unknown

And then I kind of get them to go s. Close and with their nose so that they can see that it, or, you know, smell that it doesn’t smell. And it’s so beautiful watching them kind of transform.

Yeah. And, and teachers. So I’ve had teachers say to me, oh, I’m afraid of worms. This is a cool idea. I would l Oh, the kids would love this, but I’m afraid of forms. What do I do? So I say, here’s what you. You get a worm bin in your class, , you have me come in, I’ll do a workshop, , and you get the kids to manage it, and then you let them know how ridiculous your fear of worms is.

Because it is, because fear is just the unknown. It’s a great teaching moment where you can say, I’m, I had an experience when I was a child, or whatever happened. That Why you don’t like worms. And then, but [00:09:00] they’re so beautiful, these worms, so I’m gonna let you kids manage the worms. And then eventually they overcome it.

And when I do my workshops, if the per, if the teacher has expressed interest in kind of overcoming that fear, Then I’ll say, I’ll ask them like, do you wanna overcome your fear? Because I can help you right now. And then I’ll get them to put their hand out. And they’re so afraid. Like they, you can see they’re, they’re tense.

Being a Worm Person

They’re really, they stopped breathing like five minutes ago. And then I put it in, and it’s just like they, they become spaghetti. They soften. They just are like, oh, and you can feel it moving. And they have five hearts. What’s not to love about that? Oh, and then you have life in your hand.

You feel it moving. It’s just, and they’re they, and then they’re over their fear. Then boom, that’s it. They’re. They’re taller. That’s it.

Miriam: You’ve converted them and they’re now a worm person. So I assume at some point you were like, oh my gosh, this is the best. Everybody needs worms. And you [00:10:00] probably were giving worms to everybody initially, and then at some point you thought, Hey, wait a minute, this could be a business. Where did you go beyond workshops with kids?

[00:10:09] Going Beyond

Kathy: I was working at a group home with challenged adults. They had 10 homes on a farm, and I thought I had come home.

so when I, when they It was 24 7 facilities. So they had a lot of food waste and they didn’t compost. And, and as an avid gardener and compostor that’s one of my superpowers is I see food waste everywhere.

 I approached them about that and they said, ah, we don’t need fertilizer because we have cows. , but you have a vocational program on a farm where these challenged people come to do work.

I don’t know why people can’t see what I see.

I worked 14 hour shifts. It’s not even legal anymore. But it was so great for the client because they would wake up and there we would be. Yeah. And when they went to bed there, we would be just that one staff change.

I was bringing home the food scraps from that house. So there was nine people living in the house I worked at and so I was bringing home 30 or 40 pounds a shift. [00:11:00] Food waste and just tossing it in my comp. I know. Well, right? Yeah. Yeah. So just tossing it in my composter.

 When the greenhouse manager said, what about worms? I got that feeling, Ugh. , but then I thought, let me do research.

So I started to research and I was like, oh my gosh. Second introduction, right? Sometimes the first time we’re like, Ooh, no. And then the second time was like, oh wait, maybe. Mm-hmm. .

The Red Wigglers Worm

So when I started to research the Red Wigglers, they eat half their weight per day in food scraps.

They turn garbage into black gold. They nourish the soil. They have five hearts each. A group of them is called a squirm. I mean, I just was like, and my fear went from oo to oh.

And so I set up my bin, it was August and there was two companies in Toronto and I was, they didn’t have worms. They’re like, no, we don’t have worms. And I was like, oh, can’t get red wigglers in Canada. Year. Curious and it was time for my outdoor composter to be emptied and I’d be adding [00:12:00] all that food in there.

And so I take my last bucket of stuff, dump it in, and then I open up the trap door at the bottom. I’m taking the stuff out. Holy moly. There is a mass of red wigglers right in my backyard. Compost.

Wow. What? Right. Like I couldn’t buy them. They were waiting. Right. So many signs I was put on earth for this

Changing for Joy

Thank you for letting me share that story cuz it, it’s, it really takes me back to, oh my gosh, 20 years ago.

That’s, that’s what happened. . That’s what happened. That’s how, that’s how, so I grabbed them, I put them in my bucket,

that was the seed stock of my business. Wow. And then I got, then I got injured at work,

 When I started my work life, I said like, I, never staying in a job that didn’t serve me. We spend so much time at work, I better love it.

And so I, I changed jobs a lot and, and I never stayed in a job that didn’t serve me. I feel so, so happy about that part of my life that I honored that I said that, and I did it. I never [00:13:00] stayed.

Wow. Even if like, even if it was hard, even if it was like, I don’t know what I’m gonna do, but I can’t stay here.

[00:13:06] Bringing You Joy

Miriam: I appreciate what you’re saying. I don’t remember the exact statistic, but it’s like some ridiculous amount of our adult life, like 77% of our adult life is spent at work. And if it’s not serving you and you don’t love it, what a shame.

I think something that’s interesting is not everybody would want your life, but you want your life. You know what I’m saying?

Not everybody would want this particular business, but it’s clear, it’s bringing you so much joy, which I think is amazing.

Not everybody would want my business.

And you look at. Various businesses along the way and people and lifestyles. It’s so important that you find something that brings you joy because we only have one life folks. We only have one life, so let’s act accordingly and make good decisions.

I have to back up.

You said a group of these little red sliders [00:14:00] are called a squirm, which I believe is your Twitter handle, right @ squirm. I love that.

Kathy: I, wasn’t a child thinking I, I’m gonna be a worm farmer. A worm farmer, you know,

I grew up in a hospital- clean house. Yeah, like with lots of chemicals and like it was clean

let me ask a couple clarifying questions. What do you do with all the wonderful black gold dirt that your worms make? Do you sell that?

We Need Worms

I do. Nice. I do. And I, I do wish that, that if, you know, if anyone’s listening, thinking they would like to have a worm business, we need more worm growers and we need all aspects of this business.

We need people to grow the worms, which I was doing, selling by the pound. We need people to create the soil so you’re not selling worms, , because if you sell the worms, they’re the workers. They’re, they’re the ones making right. So I would suggest going into a business selling the compost because we are.

Maybe not going out of our conventional farming, you know, our [00:15:00] chemical agriculture, but I, there are more people returning to organic methods and compost is really one of the key components to permaculture.

Miriam: I think at least where I’m living, I’m seeing a resurgence of an interest in organic everything.

And if you go to the store in the spring and you buy organic soil, it’s about $15 for a 20 pound bag. It’s a lot of money for a 20 pound bag, and it’s in plastic, which always makes me ask the question, okay, so you’re putting my organic soil in this plastic bag, how I’m, I don’t know what’s happening, but I can’t imagine as it sits out in the sun and bakes that this is a good thing.

So anyway, yes. On onward with this. So you sell the worms, you sell the soil, do you sell kits? Like to make the whole thing? .

Kathy: Yes. I did have this kind of, it was like just a Rubbermaid tote, but it had my company name [00:16:00] on it. They were manufactured, and then I went up to a  layered system that looks like a stool.

Personal Story

And we were the Canadian distributor. I mean, a beautiful story about how I met this engineer the first year of my business. He’s about maybe two and a half hours drive from me, and he ordered 50 pounds of worms my first, like, month or two of business. And I was like, I did my little happy dance. I have a business.

I’m in business. 50 pounds. Are you kidding? Wow. So instead of sending them, I drove them all the way to London. So I drove five hours to deliver this, this about my profit.

I didn’t know. I was so excited. I couldn’t wait to meet this guy that wanted 50 pounds of worms .

That’s awesome.

And I didn’t know that he was the manufacturer of a. Tower composter. It was called a worm Chalet at the time. And then he, so he asked me if I wanted to [00:17:00] carry this composter and I did.

And then 20 12, 1 more person said, Ooh, worms in the house. and I heard it. It hit my heart and I was like, oh. I started to question everything, like, why do I care? Why doesn’t anyone else ? What you know? Why don’t I just get a job? It’s gotta be easier. Like this is ridiculous. Living my life, always chasing the next customer because I don’t have repeats.

Yeah. Once you get worms, you got worms, , right?

The Power of Laughter

Oh, so then, and then the very next day, the universe is a fascinating place if you pay attention. The very next day I was, I was introduced to laughter yoga at the place where I wrote my business plan. I didn’t have a, a coach, but I did write a business plan and where I wrote my business plan, they had meetings I would go back and talk about media and you know, how I was doing in my business.

And so they had this laughter- yoga woman do a five minute introduction. I was like, laughter yoga? Wow. I don’t even do yoga. That same week I was at a [00:18:00] networking event hundreds of people. The very first woman I met was a laughter yoga teacher. And I was like, oh. I said to her, laughter yoga’s mainstream .

And she said, no it isn’t. And so we t trooped around together and I said to everyone, have you heard of laughter yoga? Have you, have you? Have you nobody had? And I was like, holy cow universe.

And here’s another thing, she, this was Toronto. She had a monthly laughter club that was five minutes wa five minute walk from where my mother-in-law lived.

[00:18:29] Laughter Yoga

Miriam: Just, can you explain laughter yoga? Just Yes. A little bit. Yes. So that we have, have an idea. Mm-hmm. . Absolutely.

Kathy: So, started in 1995 by a medical doctor. It’s, it’s just laughing for the health of it.

It’s not doing yoga and laughing, it’s laughing. There’s no jokes or comedy there is like, Little games that you play and there’s clapping and chanting, and the clapping is you clap palm to pump. So you’re activating the [00:19:00] meridians and the rhythm is 1, 2, 1, 2, 3. And the words are very easy, ho ho, ha ha ha,

And that’s, you know, for the natural laughers, you don’t need priming. You just love to laugh. So going to a laughter club, it’s like, okay, how fun is this gonna be?

But for those that are very serious, And especially during this cuckoo time, there’s more and more serious people around that are living in fear. You know?

They’re so tense. Yeah. Yeah.

The la the, the clapping gets them in. So you start by, you know, you start the thing by saying, ho ho ha ha ha. And everybody’s doing it, you imagine in person. Mm-hmm. . And it’s so magic. It might start off simulated where you’re like, I don’t know what’s happening here.

But then you, then it becomes real and, and as we’re laughing, we’re secreting all the love drugs.

dopamine. Mm-hmm. , oxytocin, serotonin and endorphins.

You get your daily dose when you laugh. Yeah. Versus cortisol and adrenaline when we’re stressed. Yes.

Miriam: Something I don’t know that people really realize [00:20:00] is how contagious some of these states are.

Social Contagion

Anxiety is extremely contagious and so is laughter and it’s, I can imagine what you’re talking about that initially it is semi- forced or mechanical, and then it becomes organic and natural and you end up with a bunch of happy people leaving that space. That’s pretty cool. Non-drug induced.

Kathy: We’re in charge of our own pharma, in fact. Yeah. We get to choose what we’re secreting, right? We’re either secreting like either we’re sympathetic or parasympathetic.

Sympathetic means cortisol and adrenaline. Parasympathetic. They love drugs, you know, and it’s kind of, I, I didn’t understand, of course, I have a psych degree. I love biology and all that stuff, but I never really understood sympathetic and parasympathetic. Why is laughter the best medicine?

Why does everyone say that?

Mm-hmm. . And, [00:21:00] and so as a laughter teacher, I incorporate tapping E F T and emotional freedom technique. I know speaking letters brain gym and other healing modalities to just to help people get out of stress and into joy. I really want people to live like I am. . Yeah.

And I, you know, like you don’t have to wait. I live everything by prevention. I’m living my life. I wanna be healthy. I wanna live to 110 or 115 or, but I wanna live to that age and not just to just get there.

I wanna be vibrant and still living in my house and cooking and doing my own laundry still and driving, I st. I want all those things. Yeah.

In order to get those things then means I need to take care now. Yes. Yes.

[00:21:45] Caring for Yourself

Miriam: Which is a perfect transition into self-care. I think that that’s something that’s important to you.

Talk about what it means to be preventative and to take care of you now in a way that then you have what you [00:22:00] want.

Kathy: In 2002, my very first exhibiting event, I met a man that was selling a super simple sprouter.

And I didn’t know anything about sprouts or sprouting and they were flying off the shelf. He was a professional ballroom dancer .

He was 72 at the time and I was amazed that, you know, he was 72 and still working. Cuz I didn’t know really about being an entrepreneur. I was just launching into that. But I was young and.

 He was just so, so vibrant and so vital and, and 72. And so he told me about Sprouts and so I said, wow. I’m in, I’m, I’m gonna do it too.

And. So he said, if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna do this, start your day with two tablespoons of the sprouted mung beans every day for the enzymes, up to a hundred times more digestive enzymes in raw sprouts than raw vegetables. Wow.

I mean, in plus fiber, protein, minerals, everything our body needs, they’re hydrating, alkalizing, [00:23:00] regenerative Biogenic, and the enzymes.

And you can grow them for pennies a day. You know, like you just buy the seeds, have this little, the grower helps. I mean, you can sprout in jars or paper towel,

 I was like, oh, maybe worms and sprouts are gonna solve world hunger. And so I’ve been sprouting. For 21 years as, as long as I’ve had my worm business and, and every day.

Being the Hero

So starting my day. So again, 2012, I seem to go in 10 year cycles. 2012. Tony, Tony I saw him at an event and he was like, Hey. Oh, so he was 82.

Wow. So he was still working at 82.

He said to me, why don’t you sell this SP sprayer and beans with your business? And I was like, oh my gosh. That’s a great idea. So then I started selling the sprout. The sprouter and the beans.

And then people would ask, what else can you sprout?

Their question would be, don’t you get sick of mung beans? And, and then it hit me, oh, people think of this as food. I considered it my health plan. [00:24:00] I considered it my multivitamin. Yes, this is something I do for me.

I wouldn’t go without them any a day. So then I said, oh, huh, that’s a great question.

Here’s one back. Would you, would you get tired of something that that made you feel great and gave you tons of energy?

And you know, that question is interesting cuz people do love their story. Oh, I’m so tired. Oh, I worked so hard.

And they love that they were the hero. They, they did the job. They drove the kids everywhere. And they did all the jobs even though they were Oh, so tired. Because we, that’s our society. We’re like, look at them. Go rah, rah. No, we’re, we’re not. We don’t need to be rocky. Like we just need to take time for ourself.

If you’re tired, sit down.

Choose a Better Story

Miriam: That’s interesting. What you’re saying when people love their story, there’s something noble, I’m gonna put that in air quotes, noble about being overworked [00:25:00] and you know, just running, running, running the martyr. I think there’s a story about the martyr and how somehow in the end they’re the winner because they gave everything and I, what I hear you saying is, no, let’s get rid of that story. That’s a bad story.

Let’s choose a better story to live in. How about we take care of ourselves in such a way that we feel joy, and feel energy and have some good connectivity with some good people and occupation that feels meaningful or worthwhile or like we’re doing good.

That’s what I’m hearing you say in these various stories.

Kathy: Exactly. That’s it. I mean, what I’m doing for my businesses is my life. Yeah. I know for some people there’s separation and that’s fine, but for me, there really is not. Yeah. It’s, my husband and I, we’re in this together.

We’re, we’re thriving here. We’re, we’re doing really great.

[00:25:58] What’s Next?

Miriam: Kathy, [00:26:00] I’m getting sad because we’re gonna have to be done pretty quick here, but this has been so much fun. What do you think is. Like if you had to anticipate or what is your “what next”?

Kathy: My big what next is teaching.

 Teaching folks with Down syndrome to be laughter yoga leaders so they can lead laughter for their demographic. That’s where my heart is. I have a really soft spot.

And you know, that, that vision came to me in the summer of 2021. And since then, I. So many things have happened I called a woman who I network with and I knew she had a, a daughter who had Down syndrome, but I had never met the daughter, but the daughter was the one that appeared in in my vision.

So I said to her, this is gonna be a weird call, but , here we go. And I told her, she said, I’m always open for things for Tori.

In Canada we have a ridiculous program that when young folks with special needs are [00:27:00] 21, they’re out of the school system. And then they get placed on O D S P, which is a disability pension, which is a ridiculous amount of money that they could never live on independently.

And if they. It’s clawed back from the meager money that they give. It’s like, well, they don’t care about money. They wanna be part of community. Really? Mm-hmm. , that’s what everybody wants. Mm-hmm. . So I think it was from there.

Fan Full Access Network

And so this young man started this organization, organization called Fan Full Access Network. And he’s taking folks that are high functioning because he wants to introduce them into the community and do things in the community and let people see them and, and, you know, hire them and let them be a part.

So he loved my vision.

It was May 2021 till December, 2022, every Friday I went and did Laughter Yoga with those folks. Wow. And it was so beautiful. I, you know, there was one, [00:28:00] one Young, there was several of the folks had Down Syndrome, but there was a, a whole variety of Diagnosises, I guess sees, I would say

And one guy was just like, he was the cool guy and I thought if I could get him to co-lead with me, I was like spying him to be the one that I was going to to teach. But he, whenever he stood beside me and wanted to lead, The others followed. The others participated more fully because they saw Eric there and I was like, it’s powerful.

And I said to him, you’re powerful. Just know that you have this incredible power that people look up to you.

Being an Amazing Force

Miriam: That feels like a really important place to sort of underscore somehow or other, you manage to find the magic of reaching people who need to be reached, and you understand that somehow you are the conduit to find the person and teach the person, train the person who [00:29:00] can be the leader.

You’re not actually interested in being the leader. You’re interested in being the teacher and the facilitator.

And I love your vision. I love what you’re bringing to people, and I did not expect that little twist and turn from our original conversation about the worms.

People are so much more than they think, and I, I love that you would be willing to share your life with us in this, you know, 40 minutes that we’ve had together to see what an amazing force for good in the world. You are.

Thank you for the work you’re doing on multiple levels, and I hope that we have the opportunity to remain in contact. You’re a fun person, .

Kathy: Oh, Miriam, I appreciate it. Thank you.


End Credits

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Podcasts, or wherever podcasts are found.

Full audio episode found here.

Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

All Leave Better podcast episodes can be found here.

Music by Tom Sherlock.

head shot Miriam Gunn

If you are curious to know more, please contact me!

As someone who has been a therapist for over a decade and has been coaching people for over three decades, I am uniquely qualified to address your concerns.