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Changing Lives as a Coach Transcript – Anne Roche

fighting fire with fire

Changing Lives as a Coach – Anne Roche

Anne Roche

Miriam: [00:00:00] Hey folks, today it is just my pleasure to have a new friend. Anne Roach she used to be a defense attorney for the poor, and at some point she made the decision to become a coach and . You know, you and I are both coaches.

I love coaches, they make for great interviews. But also I wanted you to know that in general, I’m not interviewing a ton of coaches anymore and I chose you specifically because there’s something about you that is really unique. I’m so excited for this interview. So welcome Anne.

Anne: Thank you so much, Miriam.

I’m so honored and I was thrilled to say yes cuz I really enjoy being in conversation with you as. Good. Good deal.

[00:00:43] Attorney to Coach

Miriam: Okay. Well, I think the obvious question is why does someone go from being an attorney to a coach? You know, and I think before I let you answer this, coaching is such a strange beast because.

anybody in their dog can call [00:01:00] themselves a coach. It’s not regulated in the United States. I don’t know if it’s regulated anywhere in the world. And I find that coaches a good coach can transform your life and a mediocre coach can take your money and do nothing with your life. So you already had a prestigious job. and you made this decision. So tell us a little bit why ?

Anne: Well I don’t think anyone’s more surprised that I left law and became a coach than I am frankly, . I loved, loved being a lawyer and I mean, I didn’t even know what a coach was., I mean, I grew up on the East coast and. I mean, very judgmental,  very judgmental.

I mean, life coach, like, that’s not even a real thing, you know? That would’ve been one that would’ve been what was in my head. And law, you know, law is a real thing. That’s a real thing. So I, I mean, I was all [00:02:00] kinds of, Things in my own head, and I never ever imagined leaving law for anything. But I kind of hit a wall.

I hit a wall in my late forties. I was far away from family and friends and I loved my work, but everything in my life started feeling hard.

My parents were aging and, and their health was declining, and I knew something had to change and I didn’t know what it was. And I, so I started looking around for different positions.

Getting to Be a Coach

I was a private attorney, but I took public defense cases, and so what that meant in Massachusetts was that I spent a lot more time on the administrative part of my work than I did with my clients.

And I, I really loved being with my clients. And so that started that balance, started feeling out of whack, and I started looking around. and then I had this conversation with my sister. I talked to my sisters every day and I was, we were talking [00:03:00] through some problem and she’s like, you should get paid for that.

This, you’re so good at giving advice, you should become a coach. And I was like, I, I don’t, you know what you’re talking about. But anyway, fast forward, I, I went. To a weekend of a very intense, a, a year long intensive coaching program through ipec. I went and it just changed my life. I, I thought, I have to do this full-time because everything in my life changed internally.

Nothing on the outside changed my, I still had teenage PA kids. My parents were still declining. I still lived in the same place, but everything about my life felt different. I was deeply connected to the people in it, to the work I was doing to every part of my life. I felt more connected, more joy, more present in my life than I had in years, and I thought, I didn’t know that it was possible to change my life without [00:04:00] blowing it up.

And when I discovered that that was possible, I thought I have to help other people do this too. Wow.

[00:04:08] Changing Lives as a Coach

Miriam: So in general, you help other people how they can change their life without blowing it up? . That’s a nice tagline.

Anne: Yeah. I mean, not, you know, when I was in my coaching program, the people who I really resonated with.

Were the other men in my program who had, who were leaving big jobs or positions of leadership or And, and which is not to say that only the men in my program were doing that, but they were going through an identity crisis. The men in particular were going through an identity crisis that involved their work.

If I am not this person who I have so deeply invested in professionally and, and this persona that I have, that I put out there publicly, who am I? If I’m not a lawyer? If I’m not this intellectual, [00:05:00] you know, whip, smart, hard, edged attorney, , who am I? Who have you and I that I really, that was the struggle I was having.

And that first weekend in Ipec, I felt like my, I, I’ve said this often, but I felt like. I was unzipped and my heartfelt fell out and I thought, what is this? What? I don’t know what this is, . I didn’t know that this was part of me, that it was something I had permission to use and that it in fact held most of my power, and that was the changing point for me, that I am so much more than this identity.

and in fact, there’s so much more power in me than I, than I ever imagined.

Miriam: I love that you’re one of the only one of the few women coaches that I know that specifically, I wouldn’t say target men, but you’re not afraid to work with men.

Return on Investment

Many women coaches [00:06:00] only work with women and I think something that I felt a kinship with is, I would say probably 80% of my clients are men something that I think you have conquered better than I have is that I noticed on your website you talked a lot about joy and the increasing of this and different things, and I have found myself hesitant to.

Talk about some of the softer spaces because I’m afraid that I will be I don’t know, dismissed, I guess is the sort of word. And so I talk about ROI and your business will do X. And it’s true. Any of the business owners who care about return on an investment.

At least doubled, if not tripled their revenue. Now, I’m not gonna take credit for that. They did the work, but I was walking along on the path. So I talk about ROI and all this stuff, but what I would like to talk about is that when you get your life in [00:07:00] order, you experience more joy. And when you experience this joy and this freedom, you start doing good for other people.

That’s where my heart really lies, and I know that you have some of that same thing, so I’d kinda like to hear where you got the courage to just be you and let the chips fall where they may.

Anne: Yeah, it’s such a great point, Miriam, because I felt the same way. I mean joy. The only thing less real than a life coach is joy.

Feeling Joy

I had never used any of that language . You know, total bs both of those things. It, it was my mindset. And yet it was true. I had this moment of clarity for myself that what I needed in my life, what was missing in my life was joy.

And when I had that moment, Miriam, I was like, what, is that? I’ve never used that word in my life. But I, I [00:08:00] also had a, a moment of clarity that what brought me most joy, where I felt most alive in life was when I felt connection when I felt deeply connected to the work, to the person, to the conversation, to the whatever it was I was involved in.

And yeah, it took me a little while to To call BS on myself and really say those things out loud. It took me, I really fought, I mean, I was in that program for a full year and I never ever thought I’d call myself a life coach. You know?

I was like, well, I’ll be an executive coach or a career coach, I’m a life coach. It because whatever the external issues are, it’s about how you show up. In your life, how do you show up? How do you lead yourself? And you get that figured out. All external obstacles will shift.

That was a turning point in my early career as a coach when I started sharing my own story, because that’s what people [00:09:00] resonated with, men and women. All of my clients resonated with that moment of, there is something missing in my life.

It’s making all the other stuff around me hard, and I know there’s a shift in me that needs to happen.

[00:09:20] Phases in Anne’s Life

Miriam: Yeah. Yeah. Ooh. So well said. I was thinking earlier about the phases in our life and how each phase maybe has a tagline, and I wondered if you would walk me through some of the phases in your life and how your mentality shifted.

Anne: It’s an interesting question. I don’t know that my brain works that way. Mm-hmm.

I don’t know that I think about things in terms of, you know, when I was in my twenties, I, I will say I, my. I have three children and my first two are in their [00:10:00] twenties.

And so I remember the angst of my twenties. There was a lot of angst in my twenties. Stress. I remember that.

Miriam: Yeah, just I, I remember that in my twenties too. And I also have children in their twenties and I’ll, we’ll have a conversation and they’ll bring up some sort of something, an issue and I’ll.

Unfortunately be a little too coachy or momish with them and say, well, you could do X or you could. And unfortunately, sometimes I say, well, you should just do X. You should just say X. And then I have to catch myself. Well, my daughter is savvy enough to say, well mom, when you are my age, could you have done or said that?

Right? And I’ll say, no. Right? No, I couldn’t have. And but then I say, but you. You were raised by me, so I’m pretty sure you can do it now. . Yeah.

Being Ready to Change

Anne: You, so that bring, that brings up an interesting point and I think [00:11:00] it, it goes to both the, maybe the blocks you have around using those, the words of the soft skills and also of those moments of transformation that we’ve all experienced or have yet to experience, which is, until somebody’s really ready for it, until they’ve reached that moment where the cost of not doing it, of not stepping forward totally is too high.

They won’t do it. You can, you can say it until you’re blue in the face to somebody, but they have to be ready for it. And so part of what I do as a coach is

It’s not my plan. It ha it’s not my process. It has to come from you. And so if you are not understanding that, the answer lies within you. And if you’re not ready to really face that, you’re not ready for coaching. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that happens, you know, I get people who. [00:12:00] They want me to tell them how to do X or just give me the process.

And you know what? As a former attorney, I love to tell people what to do. , one of the reasons I thought I would never give it up. I love to tell people what to do, what I have discovered by becoming a coach when I, when I became, became a coach, and again, something I never thought I would, I would believe in is it, is there is so much more joy and so much more power in watching somebody else come to their own solution.


and then it’s more sustainable for them. It’s something that they have ownership over that they can do themselves, and it takes such practice for me to be quiet and really create the space for someone to do that, to ask them questions that help them to pull out the answers [00:13:00] from deep within, but that’s so much more fun than just telling somebody what to do.


Miriam: Well, and when you tell someone what to do, they tell you all the reasons why it won’t work. , which is no fun at all. . So I hear and agree for sure. Yeah,, one of the things I like to talk about on the podcast are mindsets because I believe that. Your actions come from your thoughts or sometimes your feelings.

And I, it’s a debated, do your feelings create your mindsets, which create your actions or vice versa. I’m sure over the course of your lifetime, you’ve had some mindset changes that you have said, I used to think this and this kind of self sabotaged myself. Now I’m thinking this, and it’s opened this space in a way that I hadn’t anticipated, and I wondered if you would share a story or two about that.

Anne: I used [00:14:00] to be and still am very, very hard on myself. That was, I would say an overarching predominant trait, very hard on myself. The biggest mind shift I have had in the last.

10 years is that it isn’t about me. It isn’t about me. Hmm. And that makes so much more room for so many other things to come forward.

Miriam: Yeah. Define it a little bit because I think we could take that a variety of different ways. What isn’t about you?

[00:14:44] Getting and Giving Answers as a Coach

Anne: Sure. Well, the difference between giving somebody an answer and letting them figure out an answer that works for them is my ego.

It’s either you’re listening to me, give you the answer, and then I’m the expert , and it’s about, aren’t I so [00:15:00] smart? Aren’t I so clever? Yeah, I have the right answer, versus. Creating a space for you to find your own answer is not about me at all. It’s about you. So I, I think about that in terms of, you know, coaching.

I think about that in terms of parenting. I didn’t have children for me, I had children. For them. So their lives are not about me. Their lives are about them, and it gives me the ability to give them some space to grow and make mistakes and not be worried that it’s a reflection of me or about my parenting or what I did or didn’t do.

I think about that too in the work I am doing. In the advocacy work that I’m doing, I don’t know if I’ve shared this with you, but I’m working with a [00:16:00] group of coaches who are also former law enforcement and we’re working on, working on evolving the culture of law enforcement.

If I made it about me, That this is something I was doing or responsible for, I would be limiting what’s possible in the outcome because it’s all about stepping away from ego and opening up a space of humility.

Making it Smaller

What is there to learn here? What opportunities are here? How am I showing up to this? What am I learning about how I’m showing up to this? It’s expansive. It goes from, you know, like needing an outcome, expecting an outcome, being disappointed if that outcome doesn’t come. I mean, even as I’m talking about it, I’m getting smaller and smaller.

Right. Narrower and narrower. Into this expansiveness this. What else [00:17:00] is happening? What else is possible? If it’s not about me, what else is happening here? Yeah. And what am I not seeing or what can I see now that I didn’t see before? Cuz I was so focused on self.

Miriam: Sure. Let me, let me zoom out just a teeny bit because you had mentioned one time that you were working on these projects and I have been fascinated by it, so I’m so glad you brought it up.

I think my initial curiosity goes back quite a bit to say, how did you get involved in this to begin with? Like I, I agree with you entirely. In this expansive space, you’re trying to not only create but nurture and help other people in and help people in law enforcement see things differently, but let, can you get like super concrete mm-hmm.

Getting Involved

and say, this is what was happening. This is the need I saw. This is how I got involved. [00:18:00] Because I think that there are a lot of people. Who have these skill sets and they want to do good and they don’t know how or where to get involved, and it seems so messy, and I only have so much time and they end up writing a check.

Well, nobody writes checks anymore, but they end up sending a credit card payment to someone. Out there. I’m gonna even put that in air quotes. Someone out there who’s doing something and you know, I support these projects that are out there somewhere, but I’m also always asking the question, how can I do something locally?

And I do not have an answer for that because it’s, yeah. It’s overwhelming. It’s weird. It, it’s not weird, but it’s, there’s weirdness to it.

[00:18:42] A Messy Process

Anne: When you used the word messy, which is a thousand percent. Yeah. I will absolutely be concrete about this. When Derek Chauvin killed George Floyd, I was on fire. On fire because Yeah.

COVID had hit and the world came to a complete halt. [00:19:00] Yeah. Everybody in the world, it turns out the world can stop for a moment. It turns out we all can stop what we’re doing and pay attention to something. Mm-hmm. . So that was that was a moment of major clarity for me and I. Everybody we talk about it’s too late.

It’s too late to turn the ship around, or it’s too late. It turns out we can all stop literally and pay attention to one thing. Mm-hmm. as a world. And then Derek Chauvin killed George Floyd and I went on fire because I used to be a defense attorney for the poor, and that was a moment. It’s not that we can’t stop racism.

It’s not that we can’t address. Racism. It’s that we don’t want to . And it turns out that the world can look at this and is looking at this and here’s a moment.

And I, I was [00:20:00] at that time a coach and I had found this light in me that was lit up. And I, you know, I had gone from this fire of law into this light of coaching and the fire.

Sprang right back and I thought, tag me in. I gotta get back in the trenches there. I, I gotta, I’m gonna leave coaching, I gotta reinstate my law license, I gotta, I gotta get back in. Coach put me in,

Coach Training and What If’s

and then somebody in my IPEC Facebook group asked the question, what if law enforcement had gone through the coach training that we went through, what would be different? Oh my gosh, yes. In that, in that outcome and what would be different for George Floyd? And that moment just blew my brain open and I thought,

I don’t know the answer to that, but I am really curious about it

there is so much that is hard in this culture in in that is That is really hard in law enforcement and we, you know, having this training has [00:21:00] changed my life completely. And it, it showed me the humanity of law enforcement. Mm-hmm. and I mm-hmm. . That’s, that’s the, that’s the current, I stand in the love of humanity and I thought, what, what is possible here?

And I was a coach for men and I was really drawn to ask these questions and to listen. And again, here I am on fire, here I am in advocacy mode, and that there was ego in this. Like, I’m gonna come in here with my coaching skills. I’m gonna turn this ship around , I’m gonna, I’m gonna teach everybody how to do this.

Well, of course, that’s a recipe for disaster.


I was so curious about this experience of law enforcement and what made me most curious were people of color in law enforcement and the pain that, that they were experiencing. [00:22:00] Yeah. On so many ends, and I.

I, I can be in this space. I don’t wanna be in this space, but I can be in this space. Mm-hmm. There is clearly a need here for. Coaching in law enforcement.

Miriam: Can I pause you for a second and ask? Yeah, please. How did you even start the conversations? Did you go down to your local precinct and say,

Anne: no, no, no, no. It was, this was all online. This was all in first it was in this IPEC Facebook group.

Okay. So that’s where it was happening.

[00:22:31] Having a Conversation

Anne: So I start, I kept, I just kept, you know, let’s ha let’s jump on a call and let’s have this conversation. And I started Just saying, you know, we’ll have a meeting. Let’s just have a, let’s have a conversation. And so I start, because we were all in lockdown. Sure. And were some of those people in, in law enforcement?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so, And then other people got very interested and started coming into these meetings. There were a lot of people talking about it and so there was a lot of presence on clubhouse [00:23:00] by law enforcement wanting to talk about the culture of law enforcement and where it needed, I don’t even wanna say the word help, cuz that was the word I was using originally. Yeah.

Where it needed attention and where were opportunities for change and where they were hungry for change. And I think that’s what was so astonishing to me was that, that the people kept, who kept saying, you’re onto something. Keep asking these questions, keep holding these forums, keep reaching out, keep making this space.

Were all people in law enforcement.

And so it just snowballed. I mean incrementally, I should say incrementally. I spent, I wanna say a year and a half in constant conversation with a small group of us two people who. Retired law enforcement. One person whose father had been in law enforcement was a person of color and me having very messy, very challenging, very [00:24:00] love-filled conversations about their experiences and what we saw as problems.

Blind Spots

And really leaning into our own blind spots, what we didn’t know and how we were showing up in ways we didn’t realize. We did a lot of work and it was messy and it was hard, and It wasn’t easy, but we kept showing up to it because it was so grounded in love.

I had thought I was, you know, wide awake to racism and to my own biases and I thought I was an advocate and I realized that a lot of that was Words and not actions.

I did not at all understand the difference between not being a racist and being an anti-racist. I did not understand that at all, . I couldn’t see where I had kind of turned a blind eye [00:25:00] or where I had been unwilling to be uncomfortable.

And it, it’s hard to even, it’s hard to even. I mean, it’s still present. It’s still present. It’s an ever, it’s sort of like, you know, any practice, you never master it. It’s,

Miriam: no, you just continually become more of this other thing that you’re focusing on.

Help Again, I’m gonna ask you to get a little more concrete.

The difference between being.

You’re gonna have to even say the words not racist versus anti-racist. What did that mean in terms of your actual behaviors? Because again, ideas and mindsets turn into actions at some point.

Anne: Yeah, I mean there are, so, there are so many. Ways in which I, I recognized I recognized that difference, you know, both in conversation, both, you know, when somebody [00:26:00] says something, That’s a little like, Hmm.


What are they, what were they saying there? Or, I’m not sure. I, I’m, I’m not really sure what that was, but I don’t really wanna go there instead of just saying, tell me what you meant when you said that, or, tell me, tell me what you’re thinking there and really going towards it as opposed to away from it.

Mm-hmm. . I think one of the things that you were, you were just touching on is, For me, it was the recognition that it isn’t about me and that that’s what I meant more concretely that, that the. That the conversations that the learning I was having, the more I recognized this wasn’t about me and my ego, am I wrong?

Am I right? What if I say the wrong thing? What if I, you know, how do I do the right thing? That’s all ego. That’s all about self.[00:27:00] What was more what I was able to show up to more joyfully.

connected to was curiosity. Tell me what you’re thinking and, and where did that come from and where does that show up for you and how does that feel for you and what else might be happening? It’s not about me being right, it’s about me being curious and it just, curiosity creates.

Miriam: So when you’re curious and you create space for the other person, what what do you see that doing for them?

[00:27:38] Creating Connection

Anne: Creating connection? Yeah. One of the things I just wrote down last night.

I care less about what you believe in. I care more about how you feel. Mm-hmm. , because I have felt the same things. Mm-hmm. . And as soon as I see [00:28:00] you in your, as soon as I can hear you and see you and feel you in your feelings, I connect to you and then you can connect to me. And that’s the bridge between us.

Right, right. That’s, that’s where the magic happens, I think, in that space where, You create enough space that that person feels seen, now they’re able to do some big things things that they might not have been able to do before.

Anybody who wants to do something big, and I assume, I hope the people who are listening to this want to do something big and meaningful with their life. I wanna do something big and meaningful. Well, that starts. Little concrete actions of seeing and listening and being curious and understanding, and out of that space something new happens, [00:29:00] a response is different, or an action is different, and the machinery of better living moves forward. You know, I think so much of the bad living that’s happening is out of thoughtlessness and rote habit where people aren’t actually thinking about, what does this mean that I am doing X? There’s no thought about that.

I, I, I disagree. I think there is a lot of fear. I think there is a lot of fear.

Big and Meaningful

When you say something big and meaningful, when I was an attorney, I wanted to do something big and meaningful because that was about me. Mm-hmm. . Now I just wanna show up in love and connect. And it changes what happens. And so this work I’m doing with law enforcement, it doesn’t [00:30:00] have to be big and it doesn’t have to be meaningful.

I just have to be present to it and show up in love and connect. And the outcome is I may never see it, and that’s okay. I may never know it, and that’s okay. It’s made a big difference in my life.

Miriam: Sure. So I love that you would push back and disagree, . We’re gonna, we’re gonna circle around to that later, but I’m gonna push back on your pushback. If we were playing, you know, a game of cards and you trumped something, I would trump over it and say Yes. But in, in my opinion, That is doing really big things to see people, to get people talking where they formerly weren’t talking.

I think it’s Mother Teresa who said something about remember the little things are the big things, and to, to get to a space where people will be [00:31:00] vulnerable enough to actually talk and see each other is huge.

To get people from different races and different walks of life. And different genders to have these kinds of conversations where the paradigm can be shifted to get ego out of the way enough to have some sort of forward movement. I think that is a big thing, you know?


So I wanna take a little bit of a pivot here and something that I have respected about you is your ability to have high empathy. I think you said something about on your website, I have enormous empathy but no tolerance for BS , and that is a really unique.

Gap to span because I find, I mean, if, if we wanted to jump into the spiritual language, speaking the truth and love, there are many people who can speak the truth and they don’t do it in a loving way [00:32:00] whatsoever, . And there are many people who are incredibly loving and they don’t have the ability to just call a spade a spade.

Where, where’s this skillset coming from? If someone wanted to grow in their ability to do that, how would you coach them to grow?

Anne: I think kindness is clear. I think clarity is kind. Yeah. So it, that is a work in progress for me.

But you know what’s interesting? Empathy is not about holding somebody else’s stuff. It’s about seeing it. Mm-hmm.

allowing them to put it down, but seeing it. BS is picking it up. I, I don’t have time, patience, or interest in picking up anybody else’s stuff. . Yeah. I got enough of my own . Yeah. Yeah. And I think that I see clearly.

No Drama

Why? What is this thing? You’re, what’s all, you’re coming to me with all this noise or this [00:33:00] drama? Why? I don’t, I don’t want this. This isn’t mine. This doesn’t belong to me. Have at it, but you know, I’m not, I’m not here for that . Yeah, no, I, you know, that I, that has, that has not served me in some ways. I think, you know I didn’t have a lot of friends girl friends when I was a kid.

I think that was I, I wasn’t, I didn’t understand drama. I didn’t understand like the, the noise. I was like, I don’t, this is not interesting to me. I don’t, I don’t care about it. And so definitely there is you know, being very empathetic doesn’t always mean you’re cuddly, right? So, there’s definitely been moments in my life where I’m like, Ooh, I don’t think that landed well, because, you know, I think somebody really wanted me to be cuddly there, and I was like, yeah, I see you and you’re full of it.

Like you like, you know, you’re, this is like, this is stuff you’re buying into because it allows you to avoid the stuff you don’t wanna do. That [00:34:00] doesn’t always go well with people. .

Miriam: No, but wow, that’s powerful because very, very few people are willing to say, I see you, but also this thing, this thing that you’re doing, it’s not serving you.

[00:34:15] People’s Needs

Anne: It’s such a mean thing to say to somebody , like, not everybody needs that. I, I have had to learn to ask and I’m not, not always good about that. How do you want me to show up here? Do you want me to show up? You know, sympathetic sympathetically, are you asking for comfort?

Cuz I don’t always know it. . Yeah. Are you asking for coaching? Are you asking for Sometimes people don’t need to hear. That’s not serving you. They know it’s not serving them. Mm-hmm. , but they’re not ready for change, you know?

I have definitely lost friendships over it. People who want are very happy in their misery and would like company there and. I don’t, I just don’t do it. Sorry.

Miriam: Well, you offer many things, but that’s not one of [00:35:00] them. You know, I, I do think it’s a superpower because many people, you know, are so far one direction or the other, and you’ve managed you’ve managed to live in that space.

That’s powerful. I see you, but this is yours and I I don’t wanna take it on, so I’m not gonna give you even a seconds of letting you feel like maybe you should be something else cuz No, that’s, that’s, and and do you even know that it’s yours? You know, are you even aware that this is yours? Right, right. I do think over time Some of my clients whom I have coached have learned how to say, I know this isn’t serving me, but I’m just wanting to say it for a second.

Creating Space

Yeah. And I’m like, no problem. Yeah, totally. No problem. Totally. Yeah. As long as you’re aware, you’re welcome to. I mean, I had somebody say the other day to me, I know this is what’s going on and I have no intention of changing it at present. And I said, good to [00:36:00] know. Yeah, that’s good. I won’t bug you about it.

Anne: Yeah, . And I have to say, you know, as a coach and, and as a person, I, I think it’s really valuable to, to a, to create a space for somebody to come in and put all their stuff down. . That was something that when I was, when my kids were becoming teenagers and before I became a coach, I realized they were not actually asking me to pick it up for them.

Yeah, yeah. They were just asking for a safe place to put it down. Yes. So that was, you know, before I was be becoming a coach, and I recognize that in order to be that person, in order to create that space for my kids, I had to be quiet. I had. , I had to manage my own stuff so that I wasn’t putting that on them when they came home either.

Being Messy

Mm-hmm. . And so I shifted how I was working so that when they came home from school, I was quiet and calm. Yeah. And they could come in and be messy. And [00:37:00] I don’t just mean physically, but like emotionally just, or quiet, and then put it all down. And then they could decide what parts they wanted to pick up or not put up, pick up.

And I, I do that for my clients as, as well. And I, it’s, it’s such a simple thing. It’s just not easy to do, but it is so simple and so useful. Yeah. Oh, what a good skill.

Miriam: Oh my goodness. Anne, this has been such a great conversation. I feel sad that I’m gonna need to draw it to a close. Given your schedule and my schedule, I wanna ask one other quick question before I have you tell how people can reach out to you.

[00:37:41] Finding Anne

Miriam: What is a book that you feel like has shaped your thinking of late or you just feel like has been a value?

Anne: The Art of Possibility by rosemond Xander and Ben Xander is a really, really great book about. [00:38:00] Changing your mindset. Not necessarily even changing your mindset, but just seeing things a little differently and opening up possibility as a result.

Miriam: Wonderful. That’s great. I love these book recommendations.

I generally read every single one, and that’s one I haven’t read yet, so thank you. How can people find you?

Anne: Well They can visit my website, which is anne roach coaching.com. I also have a space where I have some podcasts and stories@fireandlight.org. But I. I am less interested in people finding me and more interested in people finding themselves.

So , . Spend the time asking yourself those questions to to everyone in your audience. Yes. What is it? What is it? If it weren’t about you, what else might be happening? What else might be [00:39:00] possible?

Miriam: I love that. Oh my goodness. Well, before we started this conversation, I mentioned that we like to do a donation in your name to one of three charities and you chose Mercy Ships.

Such a great charity. They give free surgeries to people in need. And the more I hear about kind of your background, that makes sense to me why you chose them. So we’ll do that as soon as we get off there, here, and This has been great. Thank you, Anne. So generous of you, Miriam. Thank you. And it’s such an honor to be here.

Thank you so much.


End Credits

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Podcasts, or wherever podcasts are found.

Full audio episode found here.

Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

All Leave Better podcast episodes can be found here.

Music by Tom Sherlock.

head shot Miriam Gunn

If you are curious to know more, please contact me!

As someone who has been a therapist for over a decade and has been coaching people for over three decades, I am uniquely qualified to address your concerns.

Work-Life Balance and Self Sabotage – Cary Prejean

Noah Koff

Work-Life Balance and

Self Sabotage 

7.26.22 Cary Prejean


Welcome to another episode of The LeaveBetter Podcast  where I interview high performers and business owners to glean from their wisdom and practical routines, habits, and mindsets— that you can apply to your own life.

Sometimes, rather than an interview, I riff on a particular self-sabotaging habit and it’s remedies.

In this episode, we are pleased to have Cary Prejean—a native of Louisiana and the founder of CFO Consulting, LLC. He works with business owners to help them turn their business into what he’s labeled “the well-oiled machine” process.

*Before you go—Sign up for my newsletter at Leavebetter.com.  Once a week, wisdom and practicality in your inbox.

Remember: the actions you take today set you up for six months from now. So do something today that pushes you toward that next level of you. So go be INTENTIONAL.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, or wherever podcasts are found.

In this episode, Cary and I talk about creating a balance between your personal life and business. Cary shares his experience between making that shift and focusing on what’s most imoprtant. Enjoy!

The transcript of this episode can be found here.

[00:15] Introduction

[01:32] Scan the Horizons for Opportunities

[04:19] Create a Positive Business Environment

[08:45] Work-Life Balance

[11:07] Ontological Design

[16:56] Teenage Discourse to Adult Discourse

[22:41] Avoid the Financial Pitfalls

[28:57] The Herd Mentality

[30:48] What Are You Chasing?

Music by Tom Sherlock
Strategic Business Advisors
The Sheldrick Wildlife Trust

Introverts and Self-Sabotage in the Corporate World

Introverts and Self-Sabotage in the Corporate World—Jennifer Marcou Introverts and Self-Sabotage

Welcome to another episode of The LeaveBetter Podcast where I interview high performers and business owners to glean from their wisdom and practical routines, habits, and mindsets— that you can apply to your own life.

Sometimes, rather than an interview, I riff on a particular self-sabotaging habit and it’s remedies.

In this episode, we are pleased to have Jennifer Marcou—Jennifer is a leadership coach who helps emerging leaders find and use their voice scale, their leadership, and then find confidence and happiness at work. 

She says, “It takes more than doing great work to be successful finding and using your voice, leveraging your strengths and obtaining balance can help you create success and realize joy at work.”

Watch an excerpt of this episode here!

*Before you go—Sign up for my newsletter at Leavebetter.com.  Once a week, wisdom and practicality in your inbox. Forward this on to someone else you think might enjoy or benefit from it.

Remember: the actions you take today set you up for six months from now. So do something today that pushes you toward that next level of you. So go be INTENTIONAL.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Podcasts.

In this episode, Jennifer and I talk about the challenges of being an introvert in a corporate world, self-sabotaging mindsets, things to pay attention to.  Enjoy!

Resources mentioned:

[00:02:21] Introducing Jennifer Marcou

[00:05:20] Self-Sabotaging Mindset: Avoiding Conflict

[00:08:31] Self-Sabotaging Mindset: Not Being Yourself

[00:13:56] Figure Out Who Your Audience is-be Customer Focused

[00:18:29] Reach Down and Help Those Beneath You

[00:22:20] Playing Big

[00:25:52] Trust Yourself

[00:29:15] How to Find Jennifer

All Other Podcast Episodes found Here

Podcast Transcripts found Here

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, or on your favorite podcast platform.


head shot Miriam Gunn

If you are curious to know more, please contact me!

As someone who has been a therapist for over a decade and has been coaching people for over three decades, I am uniquely qualified to address your concerns.

Introverts and Self-Sabotage-Transcript

Introverts and Self-Sabotage

Introverts and Self-Sabotage

Introverts and self-sabotage in the corporate world. I am so excited to have Jennifer Marcou here with us today. Jennifer is a leadership coach who helps emerging leaders find and use their voice scale, their leadership, and then find confidence and happiness at work. She says, it takes more than doing great work to be successful finding and using your voice, leveraging your strengths and obtaining balance can help you create success and realize joy at work.

I’m so excited just to hear more about the work you’re doing and the way that you. Are helping the people that come across your path. So I just want to say, as you know, leave better is about helping people shed the behaviors and the attitudes that sabotage their movement toward their next level of growth or success in their business or their life.


Our tagline is wisdom and practicality for self-sabotage in business and life. I’m so excited to hear the wisdom that you’re going to benefit others with and helping them reach their next level. So welcome, Jennifer.

Excellent. Thank you. I love that wisdom and practicality. I hope I can deliver.

Absolutely. Okay. Why don’t we start out with you giving us a brief description of who you are kind of currently in whatever way you choose to define our, and then who you’ve been the various roles that you’ve had.

Introducing Jennifer Marcou

Excellent. All right. As you mentioned, I am a leadership coach. I focus on introverted women in tech and stem. And I’ve been doing this on my own and my own business. Marcoux coaching for about two years over two years.

Marcou Coaching

And interestingly enough, my first day in my own company and being a leadership coach was.

18th of 2020, which was the week that our governor here in Washington state closed down everything for COVID, which everyone would say, well, that was a horrible time to start a business, but it was actually an amazing time. And so previously I had worked at Microsoft for about 10 years and marketing digital marketing.

And previous to that, I’d worked at American. For over 17 years. And so a lot of corporate experience, but I always had a dream to have my own business. I just didn’t know what it was until about 2016. And so it took me about four years before I actually acted on it, but I could not be.

Fantastic. Can you just help our listeners understand?

What Are Your Roots?

How do you trace the roots of the questions that drive you or the passions that drive you from your earliest life, that background of your childhood?

I think while I grew up as an only child and my parents got divorced when I was in fourth grade and never had any step sisters or brothers. So I had. A lot of experiences, both through my dad and his wife and my mom and his, her husband. I think what inspired me most when I was younger is my mother.

Mom was the Inspiration

She was working she was in advertising, kind of breaking the glass ceiling. In many cases. She moved me from Seattle just herself and, and myself and I was 12. To New York city to make it in New York as an advertising executive, and then ultimately ended up starting three different businesses, including advertising a travel business, a safari company and then ended up doing documentaries about Cowboys.

She’s always been this inspiration for me, because she just is passionate. She finds her passions and goes after it. And so I wish You know, I kind of wish I had that advice or that insight earlier in my adult life. So I would go off and do my own business earlier. But I do think she’s always been that inspiration to go after my passions and do what I really.

She sounds like an amazing person. One of the reasons I’m doing this podcast is to meet amazing people like her and to spend time with people like you. I love hearing how someone’s background influence. What it is that they’re doing now. So as a leadership coach, and as someone who’s been involved in the corporate world, surely you have seen a lot of self-sabotage.

Self-Sabotaging Mindset: Avoiding Conflict

I’m going to ask you to comment on something in your own life that you saw that was a behavior or a thought or a mindset. You knew, like in hindsight you go, wow, that was really holding me back. And when you became aware, you shifted and changed it, and then we’ll talk about what you’re seeing. In other words,

Absolutely. So there are lots of things that have held me back, but the, the one I wanted to I think I want to talk to today is about avoiding conflict. So I am very much a person focused on harmony and balance. And growing up as an only child, I don’t know what sibling rivalry is. And so especially when I hit working full-time in a large corporation, there is always conflict.

Introverted and Quiet

And so being introverted and kind of quiet and not liking conflict, I would just avoid conflict. So what that resulted in is people would walk off. Because they knew I wasn’t going to fight back and I would just take it because I said it’s not worth the fight. It’s so uncomfortable. And I know my worst, so I’m not gonna fight back.

And I had the the honor to have a leader. I was probably. Six years into my corporate life at American express, you’ve got me a coach and helped me realize the toll that avoiding conflict was taking both on me personally, but also professionally. And in fact, my leader had said, if you don’t address this, you’re not going to move up in the organization.

And so the coaching was as simple as just documenting when there were. That was the beginning, just becoming aware of when they were there were conflicts. And then it got to the point where I had to take some action in it.

Taking Action

And I remember this conversation, a conversation I had with a colleague who essentially kind of disrespected the results of a program I had.

And I had to go back and say, Nope, Or not correct. And I was so nervous, my hands were sweating and my heart was beating. But I was able to, you know, give him the feedback and say, well, that’s not right to, you know, kind of push me or step all over me on my, and my programs. And that was a huge step for me because after that I realized, oh, That wasn’t as hard as I thought it was.

And so over time obviously spent a lot more time focused on tackling those conflicts and addressing them forward facing and just got better at it. I can’t say that I love conflict. In fact, if we have to negotiate anything in customer service at, at home, I always put my husband on it. He loves to do that.

I Can Negotiate

But I certainly have proved to myself that if I had to do it, I absolutely can. And I wish I had realized that sooner because I, I I was holding myself back and I was, you know, kind of not feeling great about that. And I was not getting ahead as fast as I would like to, because it was an issue.

That you do need to deal with conflict. And my realization is that when you deal with conflict, there’s actually a ton of learning. Not only for me personally, but from a professional perspective and the learning for the other person. And sometimes where you think you have conflict, you don’t actually have conflict until you, you know, you realize that through communication.

Self-Sabotaging Mindset: Not Being Yourself

And so it’s a, it’s an important point I learned, I wish I had learned it or. In terms of your question of what is hope, what do I see holding others back? And I saw this both as people leader at Microsoft, I saw that at an American express. And I certainly see it in my leadership coaching business that especially as I mentioned, I coach introverted women and they very much hold themselves back and I’m using generalizations, but the theme is around.

Being Uncomfortable Being Yourself

Being uncomfortable, being yourself. Part of that is driven by these women are in generally in male dominated organizations or industries. Part of that is they’re introverts. So it’s kind of scary to raise your hand and say, you know, here’s my perspective. And part of that is just, you know, society saying, well, this is how.

And I feel like early on in my career, I felt like I did a lot of should be. This is how I should be as a professional at work. I should wear the suit. This is when this dates me by when we used to wear suits and pantyhose, and I should do these things and realizing no, I actually can be myself. And so helping women.

I mean, you know, all my coaching clients, but in particularly introverted women realizing one, identifying who they are and then two being comfortable of, you know, being open about that at work and not having to look like an extrovert or to be the one who’s allowed us in the room because it’s just not natural.

Working with a Different Brain

I think, you know, one of the insights that has really helped myself as well as other introverted people is realizing the introverted brain. It’s wired different. So it’s not a choice that introverts are act like this it’s actually, the brain chemistry is different. And so once people realize that they’re like, oh, there’s not something wrong with me.

It’s actually just part of my biology. And then the question is, okay, now that you know that, what do you do with it? How do you leverage those strengths instead of trying to fight to become something, you know,

Oh, so well said, what, what would you say as you both are an introvert yourself, and as you have coached into words, what would you say are some of the just unique strengths that come from that particular type of person?

The Ability to Listen

Absolutely. Number one. Strength is. The ability to listen and really hear not only what the words are that are being set are, but also what’s happening behind the words. I actually used to work for an extremely extroverted woman and we would go to meetings and we would walk away with two diff totally different stories of what happened in that.

Because in that meeting, she would normally talk 80% of the time and I was observing. And so I said, oh, Joe, didn’t like that idea. Or Jane really loved that idea. And she was like, well, how do you know? Because I could see their facial expression or the way they were sitting, or the tone in their voice and all the little nuances of, of their communication, even if it wasn’t verbal communication.

And so that’s when I realized, wow, I have this strength, you know, I was certainly wasn’t speaking up in the meeting like my boss, but I have this strength that was a detriment to her. And so we were actually a very complimentary team because she had a strength to speak up and I had a strength to listen and really see what was happening.

Sit and Write

Another strength that a lot of introverts don’t think as a strength is that ability to sit and write. Before they speak. And the reason why a lot of introverts don’t think that is a strength is because we’re constantly pressured, especially in the U S to, you know, speak up, raise your hand, lead out in front speak your mind.

What’s what are you thinking? And for an introvert, the best answer you can give is when you’ve had time to think. And come back to it. Whereas an extrovert, the best answer you’re going to get is when you ask them on the spot. And so realizing once we realized that that is the way your mind. Then you’re able to use tactics in a meeting to say, well, let me think about that.

Let me get back to you and certainly get back to that person either verbally or written. But that ability to think allows an introvert to really do some much deeper thinking to get to the core of an issue or get to a solution that no one else has thought of. And so the key is enabling creating an environment, especially as a leader, creating an environment where.

Introverts do their best thinking because that will create, you know, much stronger team at enabling and not, and that’s true of both extroverts and introverts and enabling them to contribute at their highest level. I love what it is that you’re saying and it rings true. I also am an introvert and I, I just hear and validate what you’re saying.

Our World is Coming to Accept Introverts

And I’ve experienced it. It feels to me like our world is. Becoming more open to the unique strengths that come from either type of person. I feel like businesses are making more accommodations for those sorts of things and it’s to their benefit, which is a good thing. I would say that our listeners are.

And I would categorize them as people with an entrepreneurial mindset, either they’re entrepreneurs themselves or they like that way of thinking or they are people who are interested in pursuing their next level of growth. High performers are just people who love growth. I want to ask you a specific business question.

Figure Out Who Your Audience Is

What insights or processes has moved your business forward? Hmm. So, as I mentioned, I have been a marketer most of my career. And you know, the number one rule in marketing is figuring out who your audiences and be customer focused. And so when I started my own business it just kinda came naturally.

I have to figure out who my audience is. And so can I coach, you know, many different people? Absolutely. But what I did was think about where my passion, they who was I coaching that it was just so excited to coach with. Or when I would talk to a prospective client you know, who was that person that I was really excited and just enjoy the conversation.

Tech Industries and Introverts

And I kept coming back to, oh, it’s introverted. It’s introverted women. And then, you know, coming from Microsoft, obviously I had a lot of clients in the tech industry, so I named it as tech, but I expanded it actually in the last year to really stem. And what differentiate. Stem and tech, although tech is in stem, but this idea of much more analytical women in industries where they’re tech, they tend to be dominated by men.

And the combination of being female and an introvert kind of puts you down a couple levels in terms of your ability to speak up in meetings. And especially in industries where meetings are important to kind of communicate your points of view that I said, oh my God, The, you know, introverted women, there’s tremendous opportunity, tremendous ideas, that ability to think kind of offline and take time to think those ideas are not coming out.

And so that is a win-win. I can help introverted women and a win for me as a coach. Help give them tools and feel like I’m having an impact that they’re going to be having an impact. And so there’s nothing like special about what I do. It’s enabling these women to truly find themselves and have confidence in themselves and just be themselves.

Be Crystal Clear on Your Target

That’s what I’m super excited about. So I guess the, kind of the takeaway here is be crystal clear on your target. And you know, then you say, especially as a small business and you’re like, well, if I’m so specific, then what happens when that man who wants to hire me? He says, oh, you only coach women.

Well, you know, we’ll, they can coach me. And it seems like your market becomes much more. The reality is men still come to me and extroverts still come to me. And so while I’m very specific about my target and on my website, I’m very clear about that. It has not stopped me from other people being attracted to my coaching either because of the introverted side or because an extrovert who wants to be more introverted and feels like that would be a good match.

And so I keep focused on who I really, really want. To a target. And I put that into the ether. And I think people are then self attracted or attracted to my messages. Then well you know, come to me from, from a business perspective. And so it’s a win-win, I can help them. And I’m doing, you know, working with a client that I love.

Niche Down

What I hear you saying is don’t be afraid to really niche down or niche down.

You should be able to say who your client are, your target audiences. And someone says, oh yeah, I know someone. Right. Oh, Jane would be a great client for you. So that is another powerful way to get more, especially in a small business and, you know, service business, like I am in that’s a way to get referrals as opposed to I’m a leadership coach.

Well, what do you actually do if it’s so general? You’re not sure who to refer to me. So.


Hey, this is Miriam jumping back in. Are you looking to go to the next level in your life or business right now? That’s what leave better is about my friend. We give you the coaching to level up, have those breakthroughs so you can stop the self-sabotage that keeps you where you are currently. Let’s make, self-improvement a way of life, Joe, to leavebetter.com and download the free resource that’s there today.

We change them regularly. So go and see what’s new at leavebetter.com. Now back to our interview.

I love it. That’s pretty clear. Tell me some beliefs or actions that have made the biggest impact on you as a leader.

Reach Down and Help Those Beneath You

I think I had gone to some I dunno women’s event and one of the speakers, she, I think she was actually head of diversity at school. And she had given the advice reach while you. And so I think when most people hear that phrase, they think, oh, I’m climbing up the ladder and I’m going to reach higher so I can get a higher level.

No, actually it’s about as you climb up that ladder, you reach down and help those below you. And so that inspired me so much. Cause I feel like I got a lot of help when I was starting out my career. Had some great leaders. I had some great mentors who were able to pull me up through the organization.

And I felt like. Not only that I owed, you know, to, to pay it back or pay it forward, but I also so desired to help other other people. And so that I think was the start of my focus on really developing and growing people. And, you know, that was mentoring people before I was a people leader. And then when I became a people leader, I just fell in love with the idea of developing and growing.

Leaving Microsoft

And so before I left Microsoft part of the transition and the change that I made to become my my own leadership coach was I would look where my energy. And I color-coded my calendar. And so anytime I had a one-on-one with my team or I was mentoring or coaching someone, I would highlight that in the green color.

And I look at my calendar and all the green on my calendar just made me so happy. And that’s when I realized, well, this is what would, what, what a job look like that I could do this, all of this. And so certainly I pursued looking at full-time coaching within a large corporation and, and there at the time there weren’t many opportunities or it was more like a hybrid HR role and coaching.

And then I realized, well, this is what I gotta do. I got, I got to go do coaching full time. And that idea, even though I don’t have direct reports that I can continue to grow, I feel like through coaching I’m no longer climbing up the corporate ladder, but sharing my. Experience to help others. And that’s why I like especially in, in my target is I didn’t mention mid-level women.

Mid Level, About to Become a Leader

So not, you know, execs, who’ve already made it and not people just starting out at a college, but that mid-level about to become a people leader or a new people leader, or perhaps just became a leader of people, leaders. So in those phases where there’s a big transition and helping them grow in their career so they can move higher up in the ordinance.

I love this example of a color, coding your calendar, and basically doing an assessment of your life and your time. I have heard that what gets measured is what can grow or change. And you found a way to sort of measure something that was intangible.

Measuring Joy

It’s kind of like trying to measure joy. You were measuring your energy or your.

Satisfaction in that hour. And I think that there are spaces where people can do. And gained so much insight, whether it is the entrepreneur saying, okay, what activities bring 80% of my revenue or what activities make me crazy? What kind of clients or people or customers do I love working with or for, and what kinds do I hate?

There’s just so much. Information. I love that tip. That’s something that I think people could really use and apply in so many different ways. Let me ask this question. What, I think that many, many people are always looking for resources. What is a book that you’ve read that’s helped you or that you highly recommend?

Playing Big

Oh, I have so many but I will pick one playing big by Tara Moore. It is targeted to women. However, I have used that with men as well. So I think it’s equal opportunity. And in this book Tara talks about a couple of things that have really I’ve integrated into my coaching practice. And in fact, I’ve gone through her facilitators course and completed that.

I’m able to use some of the tools and techniques in there, but one of them is this idea of the inner critic. These critical voices, these negative voices that seem very realistic. And we listened to them our entire life about, oh no, you can’t do that. You’re not smart enough. You’re you know, they’re going to think you’re stupid.

The Negative Voices

You’re going to lose your job if you speak up. So all those negative voices and using a technique to be able to. That volume. And on the flip side, this idea of an inner mentor, inner wisdom, is that true voice, the voice that you when you make a decision or make a change in your life that cool calm, collected voice and that ability to bring that voice out and make it louder than those negative voices.

And so in two of the chapters, she talks about quieting that critical voice and bringing out that, that true wisdom. Voice. And she also has many chapters on, you know, what’s the big leap that you’re going to take. What is your calling? So defining what you really want to do, and I’m realizing there’s a chapter on actually female communication challenges.

True Wisdom

And we as females generally will say, well, just give me a second and we use the word just now. I just can’t do you have a second? And that word is very. Subservient and it’s as if you know my question or my comment is not important. I’m just trying to justify it in some way. And there’s many other kind of questions or statements like asking a question.

Does that make sense? Again is undermining what I have just said. And so there are actually I just coached someone the other day where we went through each one of them. She was like, yes, I do that. I do that. I do that. And so we just started see, I just used just, we started with taking just out and it’s really hard because he’s these The language, things that we use every day we don’t realize how that is landing on others.

The Ability to Adjust

And so the ability to change, adjust, tweak a little bit in your language when you’re writing an email, I used to search for just and take that out. Cause you don’t need the just and I’ve noticed I’ve stopped using. Does that make sense question at the end? But it does take some time to adjust these things.

So I think this book has a lot of things about big ideas and visions of what you want to do. But also very practical guidance and some historical and societal background of why women do these things that enable you to take. And it doesn’t have to be huge thing. It’s just, you can do baby steps and baby steps, but moving toward a goal of something bigger.

Hmm. I love it. So it’s Tara Moore playing big. Yes. Okay. Very good. All right. Let’s wind up with a couple. This has been such a great interview. I’ve just enjoyed. So much, and I’m going to go out and buy that book as soon as we get off the podcast. But when if, if you could turn back time and talk to yourself when you were younger what advice would you give yourself?

Trust Yourself

I would give myself advice to just trust myself. I think I spawn spent a lot of time on the should I should be like this, or I should be like that, or I should be at this level. And I spent a lot of time stressing and being anxious about trying to make it to the next level. What people were thinking about me or trying to modify my, my behavior so that I was looked more extroverted than what I really am.

And so I would just love to whisper in my ear, just trust yourself, trust yourself, trust your instinct. And I feel like that only, it just took time for me to realize that. So that’s that wisdom that you get when you’re older, that you wish you had when you were in.

I think there’s something magical about people in midlife and, and older who choose to continue to grow. Not everybody chooses to continue to grow. Some people just get old, but there are some people who get wise and part of what I’m trying to do as. You know, the, this project of this podcast is how do we tap into the wisdom of the people that are around us and then make it practical.

So far, everything you’ve said today feels both of those things. It feels very wise and very practical. And I, I just appreciate what you’re saying. There was adjust in there too. I’m going to have to work on that. I appreciate what you’re saying about trusting yourself this, this next, or this last question might feel repetitive.

Our Inner Wisdom

And so you’re free to take it wherever you want. But I think about the wisdom that lives inside you and that lives inside me. And I wondered if you could leave us with a sentence that encapsulates much of who you are and what you would want to leave the world.

It reminds me of I’d done some work in the last year and a half on my calling. Originally I had a mission and then I worked with some folks who helped me create my calling. And my calling is people experience awe and a profound connection to the universe. And when I wrote that, I wasn’t quite sure.

What that meant I was, what was I supposed to do with that? It was something I felt in my heart. I feel it when I look at Mount Rainier, I feel it when I connect deeply with someone, that connection that sense of awe. And I think it is one of those kinds of presents that you just keep unwrapping and finding out what that means.

Coaching is my Calling

And so for, for me right now, that means coaching. To help unwrap who they are to find the wondering are in themselves and the realization that it’s not them against the world and people trying to judge them, but it’s about actually human connection. And coming to that as you are. And I think over time, I’m going to learn more about what that means and what I could do with that.

But it is something kind of a mantra that I keep with me that I continue to discover what it means. I love it. That’s a very profound thought and a wonderful place for us to end.

How to Find Jennifer

How can people find you, Jennifer? You can reach me through my website. Markku coaching it’s M a R C O U M. Or email jennifer@marcouxcoaching.com or just LinkedIn.

Jennifer. I love it. Well, you absolutely have wonderful things to offer you. You know, people, I, every conversation I have with you, I come away feeling both grateful and uplifted. One of the things leave better is wanting to do is to challenge people, come and address yourself, sabotage either in business or.

And then leave better and then go do better and do something good with that new growth, that next level, whether it’s a level of income or a level of confidence or whatever. So one of the things we want to model is that there are plenty of ways. To leave other things better.

Mercy Ships

And we asked, I asked you before the podcast started, I gave you a couple non-profits that we would like to sponsor in your name and you chose mercy ships, which is a nonprofit medical organization where they offer.

Surgeries to people with disfiguring tumors or cleft palates in Africa. And so that’s what we’re going to do. As soon as we get off this interview, I’ll send a donation in and your name and I’m excited just to profile mercy ships.org and Jennifer Marcou coaching. And thank you again so much for just graciously sharing your time with us and your wisdom.

Yes. Thank you. This has been a tremendous, and I love that you’re bringing this wisdom and practicality together, and I can’t wait to listen to the other podcasts.

Wrap Up

I hope you enjoy this episode. If you want to pursue more in the self-development realm for you and your business, contact us at leavebetter.com where you leave better. And in addition, you leave the people in earth around you better as well. Think about this where you are currently is as a result of the decisions you made six months ago.

Similarly, the actions you take today set you up for six months from now. So do something today that pushes you toward that next level of you. One last thing before you go become the dealer of growth in your sphere of influence by sharing this episode with two friends. And if you’d like to help me personally leave a review because yes, that actually does help now go be intentional.


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If you are curious to know more, please contact me!

As someone who has been a therapist for over a decade and has been coaching people for over three decades, I am uniquely qualified to address your concerns.